i wonder how many thousands of dollars the taxpayers will be forced to give up so that same child can have chemo. I wonder how many illnesses that are unexpected out there that will also cost thousands more for those same tax payers. I wonder how many people will go to the doctor that never have before because cost was an issue thus rasing demand on doctors and thus price.

and like i said, charity isnt government mandated. thats a very big difference.

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Kuzi's cigar catalog blending 101 developing your palate

Yeah.. I wonder, too. So I look at it this way. Some patient has to pay money to some third party so that the third party can pay some doctor to administer care. The patient and the doctor are known entities in this equation. The third party can be a for-profit entity (one that expects to be paid more than it pays the doctor) or a not-for-profit entity (one that does not expect to be paid more than it pays the doctor). In this instance, I'd rather not line the pockets of the third party.

And how is the poor kid getting cancer care? I didn't see that solution in your response? Donations and charity? This kid doesn't really get the publicity for that.

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phobicsquirrel:

ummm milk it..

dutyje:

Yeah.. I wonder, too. So I look at it this way. Some patient has to pay money to some third party so that the third party can pay some doctor to administer care. The patient and the doctor are known entities in this equation. The third party can be a for-profit entity (one that expects to be paid more than it pays the doctor) or a not-for-profit entity (one that does not expect to be paid more than it pays the doctor). In this instance, I'd rather not line the pockets of the third party.

i can understand that. I also dont want to be paying into a failing social system that wont give me choices. when the system fails (and it will) what will we go to next? how will that help the poor kid with cancer?

dutyje:

And how is the poor kid getting cancer care? I didn't see that solution in your response? Donations and charity? This kid doesn't really get the publicity for that.

many charities already have money saved up, or are able to take out loans to cover the cost and will let the person they are helping pay a smaller rate and many times not even pay back all of the loan. how does the kid get the care? walk into a hospital and get billed for it. in an emergency situation there are charities out there that will help. my wife does a bunch of work for St. Judes cancer research and care for children. every year she and her company bring in millions for this charity for just what you are talking about. none of the money is being stolen. It is all being donated by the free will of people.
my problem is not giving money to help others, its being FORCED to do anything by the government.

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Kuzi's cigar catalog blending 101 developing your palate

on a slightly related note: i dont know how you hit both of the charities that my family work for on the head. All you have to do is mention "Make a Wish Foundation" and "Big Brothers and Big Sisters" and you have the other charity that i raise a bunch of money for as well.

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Kuzi's cigar catalog blending 101 developing your palate

dutyje:

Bad Andy:

ok, works for me. the market, consumers, supply, demand would allow for the prices to come down. the kid with cancer would not go without, people would not allow that to happen. there would be donations and charity groups to help, they help already, why would they stop.

Donations and charity? What are you some kinda Commie? Capitalists unite! If that kid can't afford a half dozen aggressive rounds of chemo and a year and a half in the hospital in addition to a number of surgeries, they're just dragging down the economy.

I wonder how many of Joe the Plumber's buddies would have to pitch in a hundred bucks to help out of one of his kids gets cancer? I hope he's got some rich friends. I'm sure a lot of people working minimum wage jobs are swimming in rich friends that can help them pull through a costly accident or illness.

Since when did charity become a communist issue. They are already forking 'forced charity' by way of taxes. Atleast with donations you can donate the amount you want and to what cause you want. Taxes are taken by gun point and used in ways that we do not approve of already. How many kids are you supporting that you have not fathered...a lot.

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Andy

A little rebellion now and then...is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to James Madison, 1787
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

I don't agree that the system would fail. The only thing that is certain is that a large number of people will see it as a failure, and a large number of people would see it as a success.

In my opinion, the difference comes down to the way people perceive and measure "success." Many people perceive any maintenance to the system as evidence of a failure. I disagree with this point of view. Just because I need to get new tires on my car after 40,000 miles, or new spark plugs after 100,000 miles, doesn't mean that the original equipment was a failure. If I continue to drive my car without ever changing the oil, I would expect it to break down. If I consider changing the oil a symptom that the car isn't working or that it has failed, I would be incorrect. The key to successfully managing the system is to monitor it for points of weakness, and address those, acknowledging that such points of weakness are inevitable. This is regular maintenance, not failure.

Oh, I guess on that same note, then, I can forecast two more things: the system will not succeed as gloriously as its proponents would have you believe. Nor would it fail as catastrophically as its opponents would have you believe. The viewpoints and projections put forth by either party tend to be utopian (or dystopian), depending on their intended influence.

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phobicsquirrel:

ummm milk it..

Bad Andy:

dutyje:

Bad Andy:

ok, works for me. the market, consumers, supply, demand would allow for the prices to come down. the kid with cancer would not go without, people would not allow that to happen. there would be donations and charity groups to help, they help already, why would they stop.

Donations and charity? What are you some kinda Commie? Capitalists unite! If that kid can't afford a half dozen aggressive rounds of chemo and a year and a half in the hospital in addition to a number of surgeries, they're just dragging down the economy.

I wonder how many of Joe the Plumber's buddies would have to pitch in a hundred bucks to help out of one of his kids gets cancer? I hope he's got some rich friends. I'm sure a lot of people working minimum wage jobs are swimming in rich friends that can help them pull through a costly accident or illness.

Since when did charity become a communist issue. They are already forking 'forced charity' by way of taxes. Atleast with donations you can donate the amount you want and to what cause you want. Taxes are taken by gun point and used in ways that we do not approve of already. How many kids are you supporting that you have not fathered...a lot.

Yeah... I'd prefer to direct my charity donations as specifically as possible... that kid's ugly, he should die.. that kid's annoying, no money for him... That kid's mom is smoking hot and single, that's where I want my charity donation to go.

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phobicsquirrel:

ummm milk it..

dutyje:

This "Joe the Plumber" has really caught on as a focal point in the campaigns.

You can see his real story here. To summarize:

1. The guy makes nowhere near $250K
2. He would also make nowhere near $250K if he were to buy the business which isn't really even being sold to him.
3. Even if he did manage to make $250-$280K, you'd still have to look deeper at the numbers to see if he would pay any more money in taxes.
4. In all likelihood, if the business were pulling $280K, its additional tax outlay ($900) would be more than offset by other credits in Obama's plan, and he would still pay less annually in taxes than under current tax laws.

So, in other words, no matter how you look at it, Joe the Plumber will be better off, financially, under Obama.

I am so friggin tired of "Joe the Plumber." But I did read in the NY Times today that while his taxes would go down under both McCain and Barry Obama, they would go down more under McCain. Just saying.

Here in Canada our Health Care system works just fine thank you very much. We do have problems with things like waiting times for CERTAIN tests and such but nobody is dying waiting or anything like that. If you are SICK you get treated NOW, if you are uncomfortable or not deathly sick you are treated as such. I am not going to claim that our system is better then anyone else's. I can tell you that we had no problems with the delivery of our health care system UNTIL after we signed the Free Trade agreement with the US. Suddenly there were "Dr.s" wanting to set up Private for profit Health Care Centers. There are some of these working right now and they have them integrated with the public system. What this all means is that within 10 -20 years our system will likely be overtaken by these for profit clinics. Do they provide better services? NO, all they do is provide a service in a manner which MAY be faster then the public system depending on the proceedure.

Kuzi you mention..." not to mention that i dont want Uncle Sam to tell me who what when how or where i can/cannot see a doctor. if you think that wont happen, look at both Canada and England, where the system worked for a moment... then when it started to fail, as all socialized systems do, they tried to cut corners by denying health care to people that are a drain on the system due to their own behaivior. ...i.e. smokers in the later years of their life, alcaholics, people with terminal disease... this effects us". This is NOT the situation in Canada. We choose our own Doctors, and do NOT withold services from people with let's say non conforming lifestyles. Up here the way we see it is that when someone saw an opportuntiy to turn our healthcare system into a for profit healthcare system like in the States, that is when our troubles started. Now it seems like the politicians have bought into the idea as a good one. Well no surprise there... ever see a politician who wouldn't take advantage of a situation where they would not have to spend tax payers money on something which makes up a large portion of your budget year in and year out. While it may create an oportunity for wealth creation for the owners of these clinincs it does nothing to improve the health care in this country. If you can afford to pay you can get FASTER medical attention in some areas. Not better just faster for a profit medical services. If you can't pay you will still be looked after in the same fashion jusy not as quickly unless it is an emergency, then you are taken care of in order of priority. It was the government who set this system up and it has ran for decades in that fashion. It is only recently that medical services became a business for profit here and along with it came our present problems. Can't blame the government for that.

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dutyje:

Yeah... I'd prefer to direct my charity donations as specifically as possible... that kid's ugly, he should die.. that kid's annoying, no money for him... That kid's mom is smoking hot and single, that's where I want my charity donation to go.

So instead you'd rather the government decide?
Well if you want to give money to ugly kids, then my town needs a six lane bridge across a mud puddle.

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Thanks for the info Lake.

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Wow. You guys talk a lot. ;)

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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

BTW, is there somebody who thinks either major party doesn't want to redistribute wealth?

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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

Laker, you're wrong.. you're unhealthy and you're dying, because you live in Canadialand... freezing to death in your igloo just like everybody else up there. Everybody from here to East Bumfuckistan knows it. That's not going to change until you start lining the pockets of the filthy rich and giving huge patents to drug manufacturers. Why can't you learn from the huge successes of our capitalist healthcare system? I hear they've all even got koodies up there, which we eradicated in the U.S. nearly a century ago through private practice.

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phobicsquirrel:

ummm milk it..

dutyje:

Laker, you're wrong.. you're unhealthy and you're dying, because you live in Canadialand... freezing to death in your igloo just like everybody else up there. Everybody from here to East Bumfuckistan knows it. That's not going to change until you start lining the pockets of the filthy rich and giving huge patents to drug manufacturers. Why can't you learn from the huge successes of our capitalist healthcare system? I hear they've all even got koodies up there, which we eradicated in the U.S. nearly a century ago through private practice.

Naaa ahhh ! :} LMFAO

Why do you think we are so pissed. First what you said and now global warming is making our igloos all soft and messy. Koodies freeze you know...

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