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Puro's Rants

Last post 8 hours, 22 minutes ago by fla-gypsy. 1491 replies.
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  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-14-2008, 2:15 AM

    PuroFreak:
    No Four, I'm afraid you are wrong. When you take the money from the wealthy and redistribute it to the rest of the country that is socialism my friend. That is pretty much the exact definition. Now what you were describing would be more along the lines of Fascism... Thats another story. Redistribution of wealth is socialism period.
    Definition from Dictionary.com reads:
    Socialism- Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
    How do you get from that definition to the notion that socialism = wealth redistribution, Puro? The definition says socialism is gov't ownership of the means of production and distribution. If the gov't doesn't take ownership of the means of production and distribution, it isn't socialism, according to this definition. Redistribution of wealth is not ownership of the means of production and distribution, and therefore is not socialism.

    OTOH, insofar as the Paulson plan involves the gov't buying an ownership stake in these banks, that is socialism. (Actually, even that is slightly problematic since banks don't produce or distribute anything, but close enough.)
    Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-14-2008, 3:06 AM

    urbino:
    PuroFreak:
    No Four, I'm afraid you are wrong. When you take the money from the wealthy and redistribute it to the rest of the country that is socialism my friend. That is pretty much the exact definition. Now what you were describing would be more along the lines of Fascism... Thats another story. Redistribution of wealth is socialism period.
    Definition from Dictionary.com reads:
    Socialism- Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
    How do you get from that definition to the notion that socialism = wealth redistribution, Puro? The definition says socialism is gov't ownership of the means of production and distribution. If the gov't doesn't take ownership of the means of production and distribution, it isn't socialism, according to this definition. Redistribution of wealth is not ownership of the means of production and distribution, and therefore is not socialism.

    OTOH, insofar as the Paulson plan involves the gov't buying an ownership stake in these banks, that is socialism. (Actually, even that is slightly problematic since banks don't produce or distribute anything, but close enough.)

    In the line"government that often plans and controls the economy." Also the other half of the Definition explains it better

    so·cial·ism /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

    I'm sorry, I can see that it wasn't explained clearly in that little clip of the definition. The fact that the government controls the distribution of capital is one of the main foundations of socialism. It is also in the Marxist Theory the stage following capitalism in transition to communisim. I'm not saying Obama wants to turn the U.S. into a communist country, but I do believe that he has socialist views that he wishes to impose.
    Jason
    You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.
    userbarz.com
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-14-2008, 6:49 AM

    It is one the Marxist beliefs that follows into socialism. So you are both right. Social policy along with overt gov't control of private business is a large part of socialism. Obama though is extremely socialistic in his politics.
    Andy

    A little rebellion now and then...is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.
    Thomas Jefferson, Letter to James Madison, 1787
    3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-14-2008, 8:17 AM

    Fourtotheflush:
    Unfortunately the analogy doesn't work. The grades being awarded for hard work and smarter kids dont equate to earnings and taxes.
    tell that to two groups of people:

    those who went to Harvard

    and those who failed to graduate high school or dropped out.

    i do know what you are saying though. it isnt a direct connect but what better way to teach a 14 or 15 year old who on average wont have the same concept of a dollar the way an adult would?
    Kuzi's cigar catalog blending 101 developing your palate
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-14-2008, 8:32 AM

    dutyje:
    I love the board game Monopoly. I'm great at Monopoly -- ruthless. My wife refuses to play me in Monopoly. I remember when I was young, I always made my little brother play me in Monopoly. The most rewarding part of the game always came when I was swimming in wealth. However, I couldn't be stopped. Normally, when somebody lands on Boardwalk with a hotel, and it soaks all their money, that's supposed to be the end of the game.

    That's not how it worked for me. When my poor brother would roll into my line of hotels, and exhaust his resources, with all his properties mortgaged, I didn't want the game to end. See, I didn't yet have all the hotels and houses possible, and he still had some mortgaged properties. Also, there was still a lot of money in the box that didn't belong to either of us.

    So rather than let the game just end, and snuff him out, I'd buy his mortgaged properties for outrageous sums of money (how about I give you $5,000 for Baltic Avenue?). I tell you what... I'll give you a refund on you utility bill and I'll cut your railway fares in half. Of course, this only extended the game to his inevitable bankruptcy.. but that still wasn't enough. I needed to have everything. I'd waive his hotel fees until he had the money. I'd spot him some dough.

    If you've ever played against someone like me, it's not any fun. You see, my brother knew he had no chance, and he would eventually refuse to sell me his properties. I'd have to offer him quite a bit just to get him to play along. It was a delicate balance between total game domination and having him suddenly fly into a rage and throw the board across the room. That was the worst possible outcome for a greedy, anal-retentive perfectionist such as myself. I wanted the perfect game, and his broke ass wasn't about to stop me.

    So I'd feed him enough money to keep him happy while I grew my interminable wealth. Rebates, refunds, reductions in fees, waivers. I'd bail him out of jail just so he could keep hitting my properties. I loved it. Just sitting here thinking about it makes me smile.

    I love that game.
    point taken. there is a point in a pure capitalist system where you could drive everyone so far into poverty that they cannot buy your product. thats bad because then you are unable to get more money or improve.
    ...that, and this is the real world. not monopoly. that game is set up to be like that. Hell, its CALLED "MONOPOLY." In the real world there is so much competition that the analogy you made could almost never translate into real life (much like there is a disconnect in my analogy) if a true monopoly does come into existance the US has laws to keep it from being a problem.
    Kuzi's cigar catalog blending 101 developing your palate
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-14-2008, 8:45 AM

    on a side note... i play monopoly the way you do. my wife and i cant play cos she calls me "mean"

    i learned from my Dad.
    my mom calls him mean when he plays too.


    Kuzi's cigar catalog blending 101 developing your palate
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-14-2008, 11:41 AM

    kind of on topic. there are a ton of issues going on with this clip but at least it makes you think. its also a bit on the biased side but since you know that going into it view accordingly:http://www.breitbart.tv/html/195153.html
    Kuzi's cigar catalog blending 101 developing your palate
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-14-2008, 10:37 PM

    Just as info Wiki really isnt a fully trusted source for definitions. At any time it can be totally off because users can edit it.
    Work called! They said if you dont come in on Friday, dont bother to come in on Monday! - Whoo hoo four day weekend!
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-14-2008, 10:59 PM

    Fourtotheflush:
    Just as info Wiki really isnt a fully trusted source for definitions. At any time it can be totally off because users can edit it.
    Well the definition I used didn't come from a user edited site. And that IS the definition of Socialism. I can scan the pages from Websters if you would rather see that...
    Jason
    You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.
    userbarz.com
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-15-2008, 10:14 PM

    First if you want to get the definition of Socialism then you should read a socialist party site such as http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/whatissoc.html
    If you don't want to read this or other socialism sites then here is the definition of socialism:
    "Central to the meaning of socialism is common ownership. This means the resources of the world being owned in common by the entire global population."

    Second if you are scared of Obama socializing are government then you should look at what the last 3 republicans presidents have do, or you can just look at what the Bush administration just did by forcing 9 US banks to accept partial nationalization.
     
    http://down-time.com

    "But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
    I have spread my dreams under your feet;
    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."
    -William Butler Yeats
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-15-2008, 10:45 PM

    OK, you can parse the meaning of socialism all you want. Barry Obama does want to redistribute wealth. It may sound good since I assume none of us here is Warren Buffett, but it ain't.

    As a conservative (from a governance standpoint, not socially), I am disgusted by how large and unwieldy the federal government has become over the last 16 years.
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-15-2008, 11:23 PM

    sane:
    First if you want to get the definition of Socialism then you should read a socialist party site such as http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/whatissoc.html
    If you don't want to read this or other socialism sites then here is the definition of socialism:
    "Central to the meaning of socialism is common ownership. This means the resources of the world being owned in common by the entire global population."

    Second if you are scared of Obama socializing are government then you should look at what the last 3 republicans presidents have do, or you can just look at what the Bush administration just did by forcing 9 US banks to accept partial nationalization.
    If I was pleased with most of what President Bush has done that would mean something. But take a look at the vote count for the Fail Out package and you will see that a LOT more Demos voted for the bill than Reps. And as McCain said tonight, if you wanted Obama against Bush, then he should have ran 4 years ago. haha Best line of the entire debate!
    Jason
    You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.
    userbarz.com
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-16-2008, 2:15 AM

    PuroFreak:
    sane:
    First if you want to get the definition of Socialism then you should read a socialist party site such as http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/whatissoc.html
    If you don't want to read this or other socialism sites then here is the definition of socialism:
    "Central to the meaning of socialism is common ownership. This means the resources of the world being owned in common by the entire global population."

    Second if you are scared of Obama socializing are government then you should look at what the last 3 republicans presidents have do, or you can just look at what the Bush administration just did by forcing 9 US banks to accept partial nationalization.
    If I was pleased with most of what President Bush has done that would mean something. But take a look at the vote count for the Fail Out package and you will see that a LOT more Demos voted for the bill than Reps. And as McCain said tonight, if you wanted Obama against Bush, then he should have ran 4 years ago. haha Best line of the entire debate!
    I don't claim to be happy with the D's or the R's, I think we need a new way of thinking in the government. I don't think Obama will be much different but I do think that McCain will turn this state into a police state and send us into a new war if not more then one. I also think that McCain will take away more of my civil liberty's and freedoms then Obama. I don't like ether very much but I like Obama a hell of a lot more then I like McCain. As for the Bail out, that is a bull *** and every person that voted for it should be removed from the government including Obama and McCain.

    I should also say that I have no problem with a socialist governing body with a capitalist free market as long as they are that and not some half-assed version. I think that health care, banking, social security and other programs should be setup as socialist industry, owned by the people to support the people. I also agree with taxing the rich, if you think that Obama's plan is to high at only about a 60% tax then look at some of the other well known presidents, like JFK you will see it was around a 75% or Eisenhower witch was around 90%.

    Also for the BS about Joe the plumber, if you look at most small business's 90% or more make a NET profit of less then $250k so they will not see an increase in taxes in most cases they will see a drop.
     
    http://down-time.com

    "But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
    I have spread my dreams under your feet;
    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."
    -William Butler Yeats
  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-16-2008, 10:34 AM

  • Re: Puro's Rants

     10-16-2008, 10:35 AM

    sane:
    Also for the BS about Joe the plumber, if you look at most small business's 90% or more make a NET profit of less then $250k so they will not see an increase in taxes in most cases they will see a drop.
    im fairly sure that statement is not true.
    Kuzi's cigar catalog blending 101 developing your palate
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