I'm not sure why this was on my mind this morning. I'm not doing anything special. Just sitting here watching Sportscenter, watching my daughter swing away in her little swing, and brewing some coffee. All of a sudden, this thought pops in my head: "Taxes vs Entitlement."

I've often heard members on here in political threads say, "Show me in the constitution where you're entitled to healthcare." This is just an example, I'm not looking to start another healthcare argument. Perhaps what sparked this in my mind was a woman on the news in DC last night who was trying to flag down plow trucks to come down her street (a side street off a main road) so she could get out to get groceries. Forty trucks passed her without stopping. I remember her saying, "I pay my taxes. I think I'm entitled to get my street plowed." I wanted to think she was wrong. I wanted to think, "You're not entitled to anything!" But now, after sleeping on it, I think she is right because of her first statement, she pays her taxes.

This got me thinking and made me wonder, back in the colonial days following the Revolutionary War, how much did the average citizen pay in taxes? I started snooping around Google (the answer to everything) and found this History of the Income Tax

"The nation had few taxes in its early history. From 1791 to 1802, the United States government was supported by internal taxes on distilled spirits, carriages, refined sugar, tobacco and snuff, property sold at auction, corporate bonds, and slaves. The high cost of the War of 1812 brought about the nation's first sales taxes on gold, silverware, jewelry, and watches. In 1817, however, Congress did away with all internal taxes, relying on tariffs on imported goods to provide sufficient funds for running the government."

"In 1862, in order to support the Civil War effort, Congress enacted the nation's first income tax law. It was a forerunner of our modern income tax in that it was based on the principles of graduated, or progressive, taxation and of withholding income at the source. During the Civil War, a person earning from $600 to $10,000 per year paid tax at the rate of 3%. Those with incomes of more than $10,000 paid taxes at a higher rate. Additional sales and excise taxes were added, and an “inheritance” tax also made its debut. In 1866, internal revenue collections reached their highest point in the nation's 90-year history—more than $310 million, an amount not reached again until 1911."

"The Act of 1862 established the office of Commissioner of Internal Revenue. The Commissioner was given the power to assess, levy, and collect taxes, and the right to enforce the tax laws through seizure of property and income and through prosecution. The powers and authority remain very much the same today."

"In 1868, Congress again focused its taxation efforts on tobacco and distilled spirits and eliminated the income tax in 1872. It had a short-lived revival in 1894 and 1895. In the latter year, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the income tax was unconstitutional because it was not apportioned among the states in conformity with the Constitution."

"In 1913, the 16th Amendment to the Constitution made the income tax a permanent fixture in the U.S. tax system. The amendment gave Congress legal authority to tax income and resulted in a revenue law that taxed incomes of both individuals and corporations. In fiscal year 1918, annual internal revenue collections for the first time passed the billion-dollar mark, rising to $5.4 billion by 1920. With the advent of World War II, employment increased, as did tax collections—to $7.3 billion. The withholding tax on wages was introduced in 1943 and was instrumental in increasing the number of taxpayers to 60 million and tax collections to $43 billion by 1945."

"In 1981, Congress enacted the largest tax cut in U.S. history, approximately $750 billion over six years. The tax reduction, however, was partially offset by two tax acts, in 1982 and 1984, that attempted to raise approximately $265 billion."

"On Oct. 22, 1986, President Reagan signed into law the Tax Reform Act of 1986, one of the most far-reaching reforms of the United States tax system since the adoption of the income tax. The top tax rate on individual income was lowered from 50% to 28%, the lowest it had been since 1916. Tax preferences were eliminated to make up most of the revenue. In an attempt to remain revenue neutral, the act called for a $120 billion increase in business taxation and a corresponding decrease in individual taxation over a five-year period."

"Following what seemed to be a yearly tradition of new tax acts that began in 1986, the Revenue Reconciliation Act of 1990 was signed into law on Nov. 5, 1990. As with the '87, '88, and '89 acts, the 1990 act, while providing a number of substantive provisions, was small in comparison with the 1986 act. The emphasis of the 1990 act was increased taxes on the wealthy."

"On Aug. 10, 1993, President Clinton signed the Revenue Reconciliation Act of 1993 into law. The act's purpose was to reduce by approximately $496 billion the federal deficit that would otherwise accumulate in fiscal years 1994 through 1998. In 1997, Clinton signed another tax act. The act, which cut taxes by $152 billion, included a cut in capital-gains tax for individuals, a $500 per child tax credit, and tax incentives for education."

"President George W. Bush signed a series of tax cuts into law. The largest was the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001. It was estimated to save taxpayers $1.3 trillion over ten years, making it the third largest tax cut since World War II. The Bush tax cut created a new lowest rate, 10% for the first several thousand dollars earned. It also established a slow schedule of incremental tax cuts that would eventually double the child tax credit from $500 to $1,000, adjust brackets so that middle-income couples owed the same tax as comparable singles, cut the top four tax rates (28% to 25%; 31% to 28%; 36% to 33%; and 39.6% to 35%)."

"The Jobs and Growth Tax Relief and Reconciliation Act of 2003 accelerated the tax rate cuts that had been enacted in 2001, and temporarily reduced the tax rate on capital gains and dividends to 15%. In 2004, the U.S. was forced to eliminate a corporate tax provision that had been ruled illegal by the World Trade Organization. Along with that tax hike, Congress passed a cornucopia of tax breaks, which for individuals included an option to deduct the payment of whichever state taxes were higher, sales or income taxes."

"Two tax bills signed in 2005 and 2006 extended through 2010 the favorable rates on capital gains and dividends that had been enacted in 2003, raised the exemption levels for the Alternative Minimum Tax, and enacted new tax incentives designed to persuade individuals to save more for retirement."

When I read the first paragraph here, I'm not surprised that we're not entitled to things like healthcare and street plowing (this just sounds funny). Citizens rarely ever paid taxes. I guess we would pay some taxes because we purchase tobacco and most of us consume spirits and most of us own carriages (cars). But even 100 years later, when the first income tax comes around, most of us would only pay 3%.

I don't know about most of you, but I have nearly 35% of my income taxed. So, in consideration of Taxes vs Entitlement, if just a few sales taxes entitled me to my Constitutional Rights in 1791, what does 35% of my income entitle me to today? I think it at least entitles me to get my street plowed, don't you??? LOL

Everything is relative......... even when it comes to taxes.

Whenever I hear the phrase: "I pay my taxes. I'm entitled to (blank)" I say: consider the source. People often throw that term around without realizing what taxes they pay and what those taxes go to pay for. Snow plowing is a local tax issue. It's paid for, in large part, from property taxes. So, the person who yells, "I pay my taxes! I want my street plowed!", might not even pay property taxes. Therefore, he/she's not entitled. There's also a process for everything. Standing on the corner trying to flag down a plow truck makes for good TV, but isn't very practical. She should be on the phone, bitching to her alderman or local elected representative, putting the responsibility on them. Because, even if she doesn't pay property taxes, she probably at least pays state income tax, which does go to pay politician's salaries.

So, everybody's "entitlements" are relative and depends on each individuals' situation. The basics covered in the constitution are a no-brainer. But, when it comes to more detailed issues like health care and snow plowing, entitlements are subjective........

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"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

cabinetmaker:

I almost had to lick my dog's ass to get the taste outta my mouth.

This kind of argument can be used for alot of things..."I pay my taxes, so i should be entitled too....blank" But in reality, what do our taxes go for? Yes, they should go for plowing your streets...etc. But shouldn't they also be used for body armor for our troops? Protecting us against terrorism? Of course...but politicians seem to think our taxes are supposed to be used to buy votes. That my friend, when it comes down to it, is mainly what our taxes (today) are for.

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"Long ashes my friends"

I appreciate both your responses and really look forward to hearing more responses. I've asked questions in my original post because I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.

Lilwing, thank you for your response. I guess I should have stressed it more, but my comments on the street plowing was more of sarcasm. Kinda like a joking bad analogy. Yes, she certainly should have taken more appropriate messures for getting her street plowed.

Krieg, I whole heartedly agree that a lot of our taxes should be used for national defense and protecting those who serve us. As a DoD contractor I am very well aware of the costs involved with providing this service to the American citizens.

But, after providing national defense, theres a lot of money left over. What should this money go towards and at what point should we demand more, or less, for our money?

Well your tax dollars last night, entitled us all to watch $2.5 million get pissed away on a commercial for the Census... What sense does that make honestly? First of all our taxes are out of hand because of all the places where government has overstepped their intended purpose. The government has gone beyond their job of protecting our rights so far that they were paying for peoples cable boxes so they can have television, which should NOT be something anyone is entitled to. This type of thing has caused the "entitlement mentallity" to grow in this country to the point where people expect it and even demand it from out political figures. Remember, "The government powerful enough to give you everything, is also powerful enough to take it all away."

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Jason
You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

PuroFreak:

Well your tax dollars last night, entitled us all to watch $2.5 million get pissed away on a commercial for the Census... What sense does that make honestly? First of all our taxes are out of hand because of all the places where government has overstepped their intended purpose. The government has gone beyond their job of protecting our rights so far that they were paying for peoples cable boxes so they can have television, which should NOT be something anyone is entitled to. This type of thing has caused the "entitlement mentallity" to grow in this country to the point where people expect it and even demand it from out political figures. Remember, "The government powerful enough to give you everything, is also powerful enough to take it all away."

Well said, purofreak. I think it's unfortunate that people who are for shrinking government as opposed to expanding government are often dismissed as far-right whackos.

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

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"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

cabinetmaker:

I almost had to lick my dog's ass to get the taste outta my mouth.

lilwing88:

PuroFreak:

Well your tax dollars last night, entitled us all to watch $2.5 million get pissed away on a commercial for the Census... What sense does that make honestly? First of all our taxes are out of hand because of all the places where government has overstepped their intended purpose. The government has gone beyond their job of protecting our rights so far that they were paying for peoples cable boxes so they can have television, which should NOT be something anyone is entitled to. This type of thing has caused the "entitlement mentallity" to grow in this country to the point where people expect it and even demand it from out political figures. Remember, "The government powerful enough to give you everything, is also powerful enough to take it all away."

Well said, purofreak. I think it's unfortunate that people who are for shrinking government as opposed to expanding government are often dismissed as far-right whackos.

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Thanks, I have to admit that quote is not mine. I believe it was Mr. Thomas Jefferson that said it. But you are correct, the whole idea that government is taking far too much control of our lives, is an extremist view gets under my skin. It gets under my skin almost as much as people calling conservatives or libertarians "right wing." Kuzi has posted a link about this before, but if you look at the actual spectrum of political beliefs, Communism is the far left, and Anarchists are the far right. Conservatives and Libertarians fall about the middle and are more acurately centrists.

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Jason
You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

The role of government in our lives is totally out of control. Entitlement programs now eat up large portions of the Federal budget (LOL, at least that is what they call it) The only thing we should be entitled to is the unalienable rights mentioned in the DOI and what is specifaclly spelled out in the the US Constitution and those bestowed by the State in which you reside as spelled out in the US Constitution. We need a new Constitutional Convention to correct the mess our Pols have made it and spell out what their limits are. It is high time to do away with our current tax system and adopt the "Fair Tax" system to return order. It would prevent the Pols from buying votes by the party in power.

clearlysuspect:

I appreciate both your responses and really look forward to hearing more responses. I've asked questions in my original post because I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.

Lilwing, thank you for your response. I guess I should have stressed it more, but my comments on the street plowing was more of sarcasm. Kinda like a joking bad analogy. Yes, she certainly should have taken more appropriate messures for getting her street plowed.

Krieg, I whole heartedly agree that a lot of our taxes should be used for national defense and protecting those who serve us. As a DoD contractor I am very well aware of the costs involved with providing this service to the American citizens.

But, after providing national defense, theres a lot of money left over. What should this money go towards and at what point should we demand more, or less, for our money?

People seem to demand more and more from the Government all the time. I think that seems to be one of America's biggest problems. I call it the "entitlement mentality". In that they think the Government should provide everything for them. But what they don't understand is, in order for the Government to provide a "new service" they will need to pay for it, and since the Government doesn't produce wealth, but confiscates it, they will have to raise taxes lord knows that they are incapable of cutting spending somewhere...bureaucrats still need their $800 toilets.
Also, that is Good question to ask your local representative! Like I was saying, what are taxes go to and what they SHOULD go to, are entirely backasswards...ie...buying votes. Here is an example. My wife and I both worked for a mortgage company back in 2007. I was there for over 3 years and she was there for about a year till they closed the doors. Once that happened, we were both out of a job. Well, we went and filed for our unemployment benefits and then since she was pregnant with my son at the time, went and tried to apply for medicare. Well, according to Medicare, we STILL MADE TOO MUCH MONEY...even with unemployment...which I'm sure many of you know doesn't pay much. Well, we got turned down and I was livid. I asked the lady "You mean to tell me, after working and paying into the system for 15 years, the one time I need some help, I don't qualify even though I barely have an income stream"? "nope, sure don't" Needless to say, I was @#$@ pissed. So believe me when I say that our taxes don't always go to what we need them to...they go to what will keep politicians in power...ie...vote buying.
Sorry if I start going off on tangents, I start to get carried away sometimes.

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"Long ashes my friends"

I actually wish they would plow less! Back and forth, back and forth, pushing tiny bits of snow...because the clock says it's time to drive the truck. Turn off the truck and have a cup off coffee for all I care, at least I wouldn't be paying for wear and tear on the truck & streets. Another thing that gets my goat is how we send money up to the state, and then beg for it back in the form of grants. When we do get a grant, we all pat ourselves on the back for what a "good job" we did. Of course the grant never covers the entire project or up keep, so we raise local taxes to cover that. It's a vicious ignorant cycle.

I read this thread last night and thought nothing of it until a few hours ago.
I was helping my neighbor dig out her cars when a plow truck simply drove by leaving in his tracks feet of snow.
Now that wasn't a case of him having somewhere else to be he was simply wasting time and resources.
My tax dollars went into him driving around my neighborhood and not actually plowing anything... I understand the plight.

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

Well, I can see how a young person coming into the financial world, getting a job and a car and a house could develop the "entitlement mentality." Perhaps some of us remember when a person could make close to minimum wage and still have a family and a house, and maybe retire one day. It wasn't a luxorious life like some of us have today, but it was a good life. How is the 21 year old supposed to feel when 35% of their money is being deducted from their paycheck and they can hardly pay the bills, let alone think of marriage, family, a house. Someone on here, think it was the squirrel, was arguing that the "odds are stacked against us" these days and I'm really starting to believe it. But I don't want to believe it. I want to believe that there is something that can be done to reverse the cycle.

The arguement that we have more services now so we need to pay more taxes is severely backwards. IMO, we pay way too much in taxes. Then again I am a libertarian. I believe we need military and locally we need police. Frankly I wouldn't mind higher sales tax on gasoline, both at the federal and national level. That would go to building and maintaining roads. At least that way, we would decide how much we, as individuals would pay in taxes. Realistically, anyone who does not want to get more than they give, should be a proponent of the Fair Tax. That lets each individual decide how much tax they will pay. It also makes the guy busting his ass all day for "the man" not have to subsidize the taxes the drug dealer doesn't pay. Sin taxes are a joke, as they only tax the things that are bad enough to need an additional tax but not things that are so bad they are illegal. IMO, part of the whole system that makes people like me so hopeless that we can get any relief and/or fairness back into the taxes we pay is that more and more people are depending on redistribution of wealth for their survival. When more people live off the redistribution of wealth, the smaller the possibility of being able to vote down tax increases and even less possibility of voting for tax reductions. I am a firm believer in the democratic republic form of government we enjoy, so it creates an interesting conundrum for me. Every citizen in good standing has the right to vote. However, that allows the many to infringe upon the few. When it comes to things like welfare/taxes theoretically the majority could vote that the minority pays their living expenses, which is f'd up. On top of that, when people become disenfranchised because their money is taken away, they are less likely to strive to be productive. So they stop trying to improve their situation and let someone else take care of them. And so it continues.

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Steve

One2gofst:

The arguement that we have more services now so we need to pay more taxes is severely backwards. IMO, we pay way too much in taxes. Then again I am a libertarian. I believe we need military and locally we need police.

Frankly I wouldn't mind higher sales tax on gasoline, both at the federal and national level. That would go to building and maintaining roads. At least that way, we would decide how much we, as individuals would pay in taxes.

Realistically, anyone who does not want to get more than they give, should be a proponent of the Fair Tax. That lets each individual decide how much tax they will pay. It also makes the guy busting his ass all day for "the man" not have to subsidize the taxes the drug dealer doesn't pay.

Sin taxes are a joke, as they only tax the things that are bad enough to need an additional tax but not things that are so bad they are illegal.

IMO, part of the whole system that makes people like me so hopeless that we can get any relief and/or fairness back into the taxes we pay is that more and more people are depending on redistribution of wealth for their survival. When more people live off the redistribution of wealth, the smaller the possibility of being able to vote down tax increases and even less possibility of voting for tax reductions. I am a firm believer in the democratic republic form of government we enjoy, so it creates an interesting conundrum for me. Every citizen in good standing has the right to vote. However, that allows the many to infringe upon the few. When it comes to things like welfare/taxes theoretically the majority could vote that the minority pays their living expenses, which is f'd up. On top of that, when people become disenfranchised because their money is taken away, they are less likely to strive to be productive. So they stop trying to improve their situation and let someone else take care of them. And so it continues.

I thought this was very well said. I also added line breaks for you. LOL.

Thanks, sometimes I forget I can't just hit enter here like I can on other forums.

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Steve